Calorie, Schmalorie
August 15, 2007
Posted by kimayars Uncategorized
, trackback
Last night Jeff and I had a dinner alone while my parents watched the kids (if you ever go to Whistler, you must eat at the Rimrock Cafe). Inevitably, our conversation turned to Sweat365 and fitness. I took the opportunity to bring up a comment that he had made earlier in the week about my calorie metric for horseback riding. I believe the word he used was “bunk”. As in, “I don’t really think you’re burning all that many calories while you are riding.”
Hmmmm.
Those who know me know that I am competitive. I also have a difficult time letting things go. The combination of these two personaility traits can sometimes get me into trouble. Especially if I’ve had one or maybe three glasses of wine, like I did at dinner last night.
His basic point is this: I am using the ForeRunner to report my calories burned while riding. The “calories burned equation” is for running, as that is how I have my ForeRunner set. Therefore, the calories burned reported by the ForeRunner is not accurate. I agree with this. I do believe that if I set my activity to “biking” and rode Ray, I would get a different number of calores reported burned.
Where he got himself in trouble was when he said, “You’re not burning that many.” Excuse me? He went on to explain that while I’m riding, I don’t have nearly as many muscles engaged as I do while running. (Ahem.)
Of course this sent me on a fruitless and fevered search for a reliable calorie counter so I could get at least a semi-accurate estimate from previous metrics of how many calories I did burn.
So I’m still on a search for something that can prove to him that I do burn a significant amount of calories. The only evidence I really have is:
- When we’re working (i.e. trot or canter) my heartrate averages 140 bpm. It gets higher (~150 bmp) when doing lateral work like shoulder-in and renvers.
- On a hard day of riding, more muscle groups are sore for me then when I run.
- Large, monstrous, hard-as-rock thighs speak for themselves.
My point is that I believe there is “fitness” in Dressage. But I am at a loss as to how to quantify it.
Comments
Jeff, Jeff, Jeff. . . You better do some really good spooning to get yourself out of the dog house buddy.
Phil
Kim,
You can borrow a Polar HR monitor from me and see what the difference is. It’s based on HR alone, not GPS or running etc.
Dang, this is a funny post! I can hear the unspoken competition, “Well, on a bicycle, I burn far more calories than you do when you ride a horse.” Spooning, my butt. I say he’s up for doing some serious house cleaning for a month or so!
The calorie counters on all the electronic tracking devices I know are not reflective of your actual calorie expenditure. They are, however, reflective of the average calories expended by some mythical person the manufacturer dreamed up when they wrote the software. So, any calorie counter can be useful for one individual to track progress, and so that may work quite well for you to track progress, but to compare that calorie count against someone else’s is definitely going to be problematic.
Since you’ve got HR, and you’ve got a watch, one thing you could do is to track the amount of time you and your horse do a given movement. So, if you do four laps slightly faster than last time, you and the horse got better. Trouble is, there are two entities responsible for this outcome, so it’s a bit tough to say it’s all you!
Maybe the better measure is your resting heart rate? Or stop comparing your calorie count against others?
Houswork! I like that idea!
Lisa - Thanks so much! I think I can borrow Jeff’s Polar. It doesn’t have a wristband (just clips into his handlebars), but I think if I stick it in my pocket of the vest I ride in it should still work. I will certainly try it and report back!
Dave - I definitely agree with you. I should probably stop trying to compare fitness metrics against other disciplines. But it’s hard when there aren’t any in your own to guage your fitness level against. Does that make sense? I like to set goals, and the fitness metrics help me set goals for myself, or at least see progress. So how do I know if I’m doing well or if I’m at the bottom of the pile? I think my answer is historical data — I need to chart my progress over time and see how it changes.
But it’s still a tad frustrating when your husband’s ego is as big as Jeff’s, trying to prove to him that there is fitness in my chosen sport.
Three guesses on who sleeps on the couch if this comes up again…
Wow.. can’t believe he said that?! I used to horseback ride and I remember when I started, I was so sweaty and tired after an hour. My thighs and every muscle would hurt! I would say I had to have been burning a good deal, because running was easier at than riding at that time!!
Hee hee! I believe he can be “misguided” sometimes. Generally speaking he is a super-supportive guy, unless it challenges his notion of what he believes. Then he can be a little stubborn. And certainly when you switch try a different sport you’re not doing regularly, different muscle groups are engaged and it’s challenging in a different way. But it was his insinuation that horseback riding doesn’t have much fitness value was what got me.
I bet the horse is burning more calories than anyone
Don’t know about all of the Polar monitors but the ones that record a log file and upload to Polar Precision Performance software (like the S520 and S710 series) use a fairly sophisticated and individualized algorithm for calculating calories. As a minimum you’d need to know resting HR, max HR, weight and “fitness level” to make a decent determination.
Another thing to take into account is that some devices report “total calories” which includes basal metabolism where others, like the Polar report the addition calories burned by exercise (”work” performed). For example if I wear the Polar watch for an hour but never exercise above my resting HR the watch will say zero calories burned.
A calculation made on average HR can be WAY off. The rate at which you burn calories is not linear with HR. Up to a certain point the body is very efficient and the burn rate isn’t very high. In cycling this is known as base building or by the more old fashion terminology, Lond Slow Distance (yes, LSD
In fitness lingo this is “the fat burning zone”. At this level of exertion, the type of effort you can maintain for hours on end the rate of calorie expenditure is relatively low.
Afraid I’ll have to side with Jeff on this one. A good sign of when you’ve reached a level at which a significant rate of calories are being expended is your breathing. Are you able to carry on a normal conversation while riding? Dripping sweat and panting don’t exactly cut it with the dessage judges; it’s supposed to look effortless right?
I feel I’m being disparaged and miss quoted. I’ve been married long enough to (generally) know better than stick my foot this far in my mouth. I believe what we have here is a failure to communicate - the point of view of the listener is influencing what she is hearing vs what I’m saying.
I certainly said that the calories burned number for one sport didn’t carry over to another sport. I don’t remember saying horseback riding doesn’t have much fitness value. I think Kim’s a little sensitive here.
I did argue that I thought that at a given hart rate, she would burn fewer calories riding than running. I had had more to drink than Kim but it made logical sense at the time. Running is weight bearing. It’s engaging your legs, core, and arms. I’m also a bit hung up on the fact that running you can hit your max HR and hold it there but find it hard to imagine doing that while riding.
I’ve ridden enough horses to know I can ride with my arms, core, and legs engaged but it’s when I’m fighting with the horse and gravity. The experienced rider (which Kim is) is well balanced with the horse and uses short ‘resistances’ to provide aids and influence the horse but is mainly fluid and not holding flexed muscles for extended periods of time. The inexperienced rider (me) locks up muscles for extended periods of time and comes away very sore.
Did I dig the hole deeper?
Since the girls don’t want to leave the condo and they’re occupied playing master mind with Grandpa, I did a little more googling on this topic and here’s what I found - two sources of MET estimations for horse back riding:
http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/physical/pdf/PA_Intensity_table_2_1.pdf
http://www.caloriesperhour.com/index_burn.html
The .gov listing puts riding horses in the > 6 METs category. The ‘caloriesperhour’ site breaks it out into 4 intensities - 4.0 METS for ‘Horseback Riding - general’; 2.6 METs for ‘Horseback Riding - walking’; 6.5 METs for ‘Horseback Riding - trotting’; and 8.0 METs for ‘Horseback Riding - galloping’;
The caloriesperhour site starts ‘Running’ at a 5 MPH pace at 8.0 METs and goes up to 18 METs for a 10+ MPH pace. Perhaps my making it about HR is totally off, but at least someone’s research published on the Internet (lies, dam lies, and statistics I always say) agrees with me that you burn calories faster running than riding a horse.
Now as is pointed out in the Sweat365 Library article Burned by Calories Burned all of these values are derived from studies of specific individuals to build tables and thus vary a lot in their accuracy.
It was fun to look though.
Dang, this is better than television. I *so* wish there was a video of this conversation…
I guess one question is whether a given HR is reflective of the overall respiratory system’s effort to get oxygen to those parts of the body that need the things it provides. This would answer the question of whether a given HR means your body is doing the same amount of work regardless of the movement. My guess is that the answer is yes to this question (it doesn’t matter how many muscle groups any movement engages because the issue is how much oxygen is needed by the body as a whole during an aerobic activity. Logically, if more muscle groups are engaged, more oxygen is needed, and respiration increases. So, it might be that although the HR remains the same between two movements, it might feel like you’re running really slowly v. riding very boisterously on the horse). And, by extension, if you maintain a given HR for a longer period of time, you do more work. I guess I’m throwing the gauntlet down here, Jeff. Can you cite a source that says the opposite?
And I can’t believe you said, “the point of view of the listener is influencing what she is hearing vs what I’m saying.” One word here: Duh.
re: Digging the hole: Only the listener can answer that question. I will say that you should get points for that really nice point about how Kim is an experienced rider, and well balanced with the horse, especially by contrasting it with how you’re more rigid. Is it enough to dig yourself out of the hole? Only the listener knows!
re: Overall Fitness Level: Yes, chart metrics that illustrate this over time. For instance, resting HR (take it at the same time every 7th day). Or, do a one mile run for time. If your overall fitness level is improving, you should see these numbers decline.
> the question of whether a given HR means your body is
> doing the same amount of work regardless of the movement.
Mmm, yes and no. As the power monitor geeks in cycling love to point out HR is affected by numerous things. Just sit there and think about something that makes you really mad and your HR goes up. On a really hot day you’re likely to have a higher HR. If you’re dehydrate your HR is going to be higher. Lying down your HR is lower than sitting or standing and I believe the explaination has more to do with the work required to overcome gravity than the muscles required to sit/stand. That’s also the explaination I’ve heard for why swimming the heart rate is usually lower for a given amount of work than running or cycling.
One explaination for why HR would be higher for lateral work than trot or canter might be increased concentration and/or stress. Wouldn’t a posting trot would require the most muscular work by the rider?
A much better metric of caloric consuption is respiratory volume. Think about HR being elevated when you’re frightend. You’re breathing becomes rapid but shallow. The number of calories your body burns is determined by how much oxygen you take in and covert to CO2. This is what they measure when they do VO2 max testing on a treadmill or exercycle. While it’s not practical to actually measure this in the field developing a feel for ventilary threshold or preceived exertion is an invaluable aid in dosing effort for training and competition.
I really do appreciate all these comments! This is awesome!
Just a quick clarifying points: In dressage, it does depend on the horse the level of engagement of muscle groups in the walk, trot, canter, and lateral work. The more untrained the horse, the more “active” your aids are, and each gait may or may not have more muscle groups engaged. Right now with Ray, the trot is the most comfortable for me, and I can move with his rhythm, and my heartrate will stay at a moderate rate. But at the canter, he is unbalanced and so I work hard with resisting and releases to bring him back so he “sits” more and the withers lift. This work at the canter can be so hard that yes, at times I can not talk through it and I get physically tired. As the horse becomes better balanced, the rider’s effort becomes lessened (which is one reason why Olympic-level dressage riders make it look so easy). Couple that with the fact that you become in general more more fit as you ride over time, and it’s no wonder that upper level dressage riders don’t break a sweat.
And yes, I think Ray’s burning more calories than anyone!
This is an AWESOME conversation. Not because I like the idea of Jeff and Kim arguing… Jeff… three little words…. “She’s always right!”
But what is awesome is we’re talking (and hopefully thinking) about one of the most important concepts (in my opinion) in physical fitness. Fuel to effort ratio and the effect of training on efficiency.
Here’s my suggestion… if you REALLY want to get to the bottom of this.
Prerequisite: Admit you guys are both right about some of what you’ve said, and realize that what you’re arguing about are the “unknown” variables that impact any one persons body in training on any one particular event.
I think that what Kim really wants to know is, how many excess calories am I burning in a typical dressage session. There is a very straightforward scientific approach to determining this. The answer, once found, will only be specific to Kim, and will only be accurate for as long as the significant factors (which are unknown) remain constant. But it will be good enough for a couple months, and you can always recalibrate it every couple months if you want to know.
Getting the answer to this question won’t be easy. It will require tracking a lot of things, documenting every calorie you consumer, every activity you do, and paying particular attention to your weight. It will require using tools like the Polar (not the Garmin) to track “estimated” calories based on their proprietary algorithm. And you’ll also want to keep a detailed log of how Ray is progressing and how he handled each dressage session… but if you want to do it, it’s possible.
So… if you are serious… let me know, I can detail a process you could follow that would get you the answer to this question.
BTW, the process I’m describing is essentially the same process that Lance Armstrong used to determine his exact fuel needs during his off-season training for his 7 TdF wins. Lance would claim that his awareness of his body’s needs allowed him to enter the TdF a light as he possible could while still being as strong as he possibly could.
Losing weight and gaining strength while training is one of the hardest things to do… and it can be done only when you pay attention to calories in and calories out. Now granted, Lance has a lot more equipment available to him… but you don’t need to be as accurate as he did. You’ll be happy just losing a waist size or so.
Oddly enough, perhaps what Brad says is the acid test for this argument. Physiological and gender differences aside, if you both eat exactly the same food (compared with, say your respective BMIs, or weight, or whatever) for a week, and take exactly the same duration of exercise, you could see who’s weight had changed the most.
As you can see I’m not too much of an expert on this kind of thing. The one thing I do know, Jeff, is once you’re in a hole, you should stop digging! Two comments, and a bunch of research to back up your position - what were you thinking? Admit you were wrong, buy flowers, return the Forerunner, etc, etc . . . . Trust me on this - even if you were right - hey, I’m a guy, so I’m pretty sure you were right. Look, I’m on your side here. No, really.
> work at the canter can be so hard that yes, at times
>I can not talk through it and I get physically tired.
Well, there you have it. It’s definitely burning some calories. Running pace at comparable effort (perceived exertion) should burn roughly the same number of calories. The HR for the two activies will likely be vastly different.
I think we’ve all been looking at this as an aerobic activity when a better model might be strength training. It sounds like the majority of the work being done is isometric. It’s also relatively short duration. By that I mean it’s not steady state for 30 minutes or more like cycling, running, rowing, etc. Weight lifting, especially if you’re doing near one rep max lifts heart rate lags way behind effort. With that in mind the HRM “calabrated” for running may understate the number of calories burned.
“With that in mind the HRM “calabrated” for running may understate the number of calories burned.”
If that’s not fuel for the fire… I don’t know what is!
Yowza!
Okay, let’s bring it on! I’m willing to do the “calorie-in and calorie-out” thing to see what the calories burned in a “typical” dressage session. Of course, working with a live animal means that not much remains constant, but I could do an average of over rides. I’m even willing to document it over the blog for all inquiring minds.
And, just for everyone’s piece of mind, Jeff and my “arguments” are very good natured. In fact, the only time we were truly mad at each other was when I switched his car insurance without telling him…
What’s no long longer clear to me (and may never have been) is if Kim is really interested in calories burned for the purpose of fueling and adjusting diet or if she’s just looking at it as a “level of effort” reading. If it’s a “level of effort” reading she’s looking for, the calories reading on the Garmin should be fine, right? It will be useful in comparing day by day against herself, right?
Bernie, I think your right from my experience.
Oh, and Karl, I’ve never been able to leave a shovel just lying around…
[…] With respect to an earlier post, I would like to ask Brad/Zappoman to post his method for determining calories burned. I would really like to see what the average number of calories burned is for a typical dressage schooling session with Rasyn. Of course, I’m making a HUGE assumption that Brad will even read this… […]
But the question is… did you save him a bunch of money?
I want to basically record my “level of effort”, i.e. be able to separate an easy ride versus a hard ride. NOW, however, I feel I need to vinidicate myself that the number of calories burned is indeed significant. (That and I am pretty curious.)
Of course I saved him money! It’s Canadian! Oh wait, that doesn’t work anymore…
[…] Speaking of which, no work with Ray today. Instead I let him recover from the fly spray incident (actually the girls and I went to a birthday party today at a local zoo). Tomorrow he won’t get off so easy. We’re going to continue our work at the mounting block, and then transfer that to under saddle. We may not get beyond a walk, but the emphasis will be on softness, suppleness, and relaxation. I think this horse needs yoga more than I do. :-) And I will have the Polar tomorrow so I can start comparing calories burned with the Garmin. After Ray and I get back to our “normal” riding schedule, I’m going to implement the plan outlined by Brad and see what my calorie count is when I do ride. Jeff will be reminded once again that I never forget a challenge… […]
Jessica
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